Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to another edition of Within WordPress, the podcast about people inside the WordPress community. And with us today is a very good friend of mine, actually. Raquel. Welcome, Raquel.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Thank you. Glad to be here.
[00:00:18] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you should be. It's a fun podcast and I get a lot of positive feedback on the guests and all the variety of the guests. So I'm very happy to have you on this episode.
The question I ask everyone is where may they know you from in the WordPress community?
[00:00:40] Speaker B: You may know me from one Phoenix, Arizona, in the US. That is where I reside permanently. Very involved with community here, but I definitely get around. So I go to a lot of work camps, and I've been to several Camp Europe iterations. So you have been all over the place. There was actually recently in Porto and also Athens.
And I'm sure people might have seen me on the socials in the platform formerly known as Twitter, and I'm going to guess still call it that.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: It's complicated. I would.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: But, you know, Instagram, FB, LinkedIn, all the places, so I do get around. Those are some places that you might recognize me from.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Yeah. So you briefly mentioned you're very active in the WordPress community in terms of organizing work. Camp Phoenix.
How long have you been doing that? And maybe the bigger question is how did you get into that?
[00:01:44] Speaker B: So I've been a volunteer since 2014 or 13, forget which one exactly, but I've been an organizer since 2015, essentially for our 2016 iteration.
The way I got into that, specifically into organizing Word camp, was at the time the organizers were, this was like from the early years, from 2009 to 2014. It was located in a suburb of Phoenix, and it was one of the biggest word camps in the entire world at the time. This was obviously early on, but I mean, it was definitely a super camp. It was like 800 people.
The only one bigger was San Francisco.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: It was the beginning. Everybody was figuring things out. So the team at the time would just burn insurance. They just kept burning out. So they had approached me at the end of 2014 saying, hey, we really needed a lead. But I at the time, considered myself quite a baby with everything. And this is a whole other backstory, but I was just really starting to discover who I was and what my giftings were, and I just wasn't ready. So I could not actually organize at the time. But then because of that, we had no word camp for 2015, and that was enough to cause me some pain, which is why we usually make decisions to then say, okay, this needs to be done. So me and two others kind of spearheaded our 2016 iteration. We brought it to Phoenix proper and it's been honestly amazing ever since. It's been absolutely wonderful. And I'm not being fluffy, it really has been.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: You're making me think I should consider going to work camp Phoenix next time around.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: 100%.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: Such a long schedule already.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: I know.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: And how was it that you were on the radar to be invited to be on the work team?
[00:03:58] Speaker B: There's a little bit more backstory to that, but in 2010, co founded WordPress Agency with my ex partner.
It's called Modifact. It actually still exists today, and it was born out of again, pain and a problem of during the housing crisis, a lot of people were losing their day jobs and I was a full time stay at home mom and my ex partner did websites on the side and lost his day job. And we were like, what do we do? So we decided to just take this side gig that was pulling in. I mean, a decent amount of money per year for us. And so we're like, let's just take it full throttle and see what happened. So we did. That's why I joked that I was an accidental entrepreneur.
Yeah, that started a whole journey of self discovery. And I first came on and helped him, obviously, just a lot of admin. I never was actually building in WordPress, but just a user just using it and things like that. But of course, any business needs all sorts of management and help. So did all of that. Finally went to my first word camp in 2012 and just fell in love. It was word Camp San Diego. I was blown away. I mean, completely floored. I had been part of communities my entire life, whether it was school or church. It was pretty much it at the time, but I could not believe out of all the communities I've been a part of, this was the first time I ever felt truly wanted, accepted and appreciated for no reason other than existing. And I just could not believe it. I was absolutely floored. And this gets a little philosophical, but especially coming from a place where you're supposed to be a very kind community, but in actuality turned into a very much like a peacock community, which could be said for some WordPress to say, but at the time, 2012, it was just so grassroots and so special. So because of that, I went back home and then started getting real involved with the local community and noticed over the next couple of years that I was actually more involved with the community at large, whether it was throughout the US or the world. And then really finally started to pour into Phoenix as my actual local community. And once I did that, I caught the attention, know the organizers, and they saw what I didn't fully see in me yet, and that's how that started.
[00:06:25] Speaker A: Isn't that wonderful?
[00:06:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: I have a similar story in that regard, but the only difference is I had to organize my first word camp to experience a word camp, which is a weird experience in of itself. I knew what it was, we knew what it was, and then we started organizing the very first version of Working of Netherlands, which is 2009. We had no idea what it was going to look like. This is us taking a stab at what it probably should be. I have no idea. But the warm and welcoming feeling was exactly the same experience for me as well. Wow. So you started alongside with your partner, learning the world of WordPress and then starting contributing.
What was the moment you went like this.
Maybe you already gave the answer, but what was the moment you went like? This is really where I want to spend my future. Is that the actual San Diego work camp already, or did that start later?
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Now it was later.
That moment was Just pivotal because I was just blown away, like I said. But it was gradual at the time. I was still very much a mom, and my kids were very little at the time, and so I was doing a lot for them. But then at the same time, growing and being an entrepreneur and learning and then seeing this thing, WordPress, in the community and just Wordpress that I was attracted to. So there's just strong attraction. So as I just was going to events and things like that, I just started to take inventory of what I could do and what I couldn't do. And for me, I feel like the moment was when I postponed finishing my degree. So I remember saying that when the organizers approached me, because first out of high school, I went straight to one of the biggest universities in the entire United States and really, really loved the time there. Did really well. But I was 19 and kind of young and dumb and got married and got distracted, so I didn't finish school. And so my kids at this time were all in grade school and started this business. So now I had time to go back to school, so I did. I went back to school, finished the first part like the associates, but then was going to go on for my bachelor's and had told the organizers that was one of the reasons why I couldn't. I needed to finish school, so it was still finishing. And then that pain I told you about when we didn't have a work camp, 2015 for Phoenix, and here I am just in love all over the place. That was the first time I went to work, Camp Europe, which was in Sevilla.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: That's the first time.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: No, I met you. I already knew you from transonomics, but first time I met you in your turf.
[00:09:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I remember. Yeah, I remember having us having dinner as well, I think. Yeah, I think so.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: We were hanging up a few times.
I just had to have a word. Camp Phoenix. And I did not think I wasn't going to finish school, but I just did not go back. Well, I got the associates, and I didn't go back that following semester because the idea was to go back to Arizona State, which is where I was, and here I Am, 2023, and still have not gone back because WordPress completely took my world.
Even my job now requires bachelor's degree. But because I have the network and the experience, I have the job. So I still want to go back and finish just because I like to finish what I start.
But that was definitely the moment, I think, when I set that aside and said, I want to do this instead.
[00:10:05] Speaker A: Yeah. So you briefly mentioned in the job that you do now.
So what is it you do now in the community? Because you say ex partner, so I'm guessing it's no longer in mode effect.
Yes.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Correct.
Yeah. No. Let's see. The very beginning, 2018. Well, I guess it was prior to that I really started to understand what I loved, and I started to get approached by WordPress companies to say, hey, maybe you might want to come work for us. And I was like, wait, what? No, this is what I do. I do modifact.
But then I guess the seed was planted. I was accepted. I like to joke, and I just started to think about, like, wait, I could do what I love 100% of the time. And it's not that I didn't love what I built with my ex partner, which was ModiFX, but I didn't love what I did. I did a lot of admin, a lot of COO, a lot of CFO, and it's just not what I love. I always joke that I might be excellent at cleaning toilets and doing the dishes, but I don't love that. I don't want to keep doing that. Not that finances and operations are comparable to cleaning toilets.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: Well.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: I did not love that at all.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: No, I get that. I get it.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: Yeah. So then my partner at the time and I just talked about it, and we just kind of thought the timing was right, that if something came up, I would then move on to do that and not be part of the business anymore and things aligned. A new partner came in and bought me out at the time and just pushed me down to a little tiny owner role. And then I got hired with elegant themes after a few other talking to a few other Wordpress companies, and at first I was hired, I was their event coordinator. They really wanted someone to plan events. They wanted someone to basically plan Wordcamp. But for Divi, for Divi users, that was 2019.
So the following year was the pandemic. And so that never happened. But because of that, my role very much transitions to community manager. So we all know what community managers do. A lot of them actually are a little bit different per company, but that is now what I do for elegant themes, I'm the community manager, doing what I love, taking care of the community that surrounds the product of Divi.
[00:12:42] Speaker A: It is very fitting, if I may say so, for your mean. Obviously, we've known each other a bit longer than briefly, having met at some word camps we have spoken, we've had dinners and stuff like that. But knowing you and knowing what a community manager does at a Wordpress company such as elegant themes, I think that's a perfect match. So what I'm curious about, though, are some of the details, because, as you know, there's a wide variety of what a community manager may do.
And part of this podcast is me having the opportunity to talk to all different kinds of people in the community. And I like to show as many different roles as there possibly are. Yours is a very interesting one because it touches it and it's a great example of how you can be connected to the community, but you don't have to write code or you don't have to be knee deep into understanding how the inner workings of WordPress intertwine with each other and how you can produce this and this and that. Can you share a little bit more about what community manager means? I can imagine you're possibly connecting to different social channels and stuff like that.
Is that the line of thought, or.
Please enlighten me.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: Yeah, for me, it goes deep. It goes really deep. Of course, there are definitely touch points, social media and slack and all sorts of platforms, especially because most of it is virtual. And of course, touch points could be a Wordcamp, could be another conference where you're meeting with community and things like that.
And I'm sure throughout the rest of our converSation, this will be heavily laced of the depth of where it is for me. And that is basically my why, like why I exist. Or at least, I mean, I didn't put myself here on this earth, but here I am. There's a reason why. I mean I have a why and I'm going to live it out every day and for me I get to do that with my role.
[00:14:57] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: So yeah, I don't code and I am a moderate implementer, I think, and definitely user, but it's not about that for me. There are many platforms, we all know the climate right now of our competition and where WordPress is today.
But we are humans at the end of the day and humans need connection. And I love being a connector. I absolutely love it and I take that with me everywhere I go. So for instance, elegant themes. We have a meetup pro community just like WordPress does. And we have meetups all over the world and I coach them, I guide them on how to build community and it goes deep. I say a lot of, I think, offensive words that I don't think are offensive, but I think they are offending, if that makes sense. I say the words like if somebody feels warm welcome then they're going to come back. If somebody feels loved then they're going to bring back.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: That's a good one.
[00:16:05] Speaker B: Yeah, that really is what it is for me everywhere I go. I mean I'm a remote worker, but I am in the co working space because I love people, I love connecting.
I just have my absolute why in life is that everywhere I go, wherever my feet are, I will build community, meaning I will make connection, I will smile at somebody, I will leave the space I was just in better than how I entered it.
That's kind of a big picture answer to your question, and I'm sure it is.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: It brings in a lot of philosophical standpoints as well. But I like that that's you.
I'm trying to wrap my head around what you just in passing, just to sort of mention that you organize or help guide organize meetups revolving around Divi, meaning there's people that work with Divi that gather just like a Wordpress meetup, I'm assuming gather around, do presentations, talk about, connect, all of that in the pretext of learning more about DFI.
Is it as literal as that?
[00:17:24] Speaker B: That's 100% with it, yeah.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: Okay.
I don't work with DV, but I'm fascinated to learn that is as big, I know it's big, but it's this big in terms of having that sort of reach. Yeah, reach. And in turn having that sort of effect on smaller communities. That's pretty wild.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah.
I'm actually glad. So there's a lot I identify with and share values with when it comes to elegant themes. As a company one, they're local, so they're stateside based. And I am always, wherever I am, I want to support local no matter where I am in the world. And they are bootstrapped. That's one of my personal faves.
And actually, they were the first to the world. I mean, we are the ones who shook things up in WordPress. I mean, we are the ones to make much respect for him. I really like Matt, but kind of get a little like, what's going on here with this page builder that's causing a disruption to WordPress, and we're the first on the market. In fact, today we're the biggest premium page builder in the entire world. We don't have a freemium option, and there's a big difference.
You know, our biggest competitor definitely is Elementor, and once elementor hit the market, they know the CEO at Elliot themes, and they very much said, we're here to copy exactly what you guys do, but do it better. And, of course, more money always gives you more opportunities.
[00:19:03] Speaker A: How did Nick respond to that? Because that's an interesting one.
[00:19:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:06] Speaker A: And for those listening, Nick is the CEO of.
Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting thing to learn and then having to react to, because I'm assuming there's a reaction part as well.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: Yeah, it was actually pretty sure a word camp us, maybe early iteration. It might have been like a Philly or Nashville. Sorry. Yeah, actual us, not San Francisco before they were big.
Yeah. He was definitely like, okay.
Anyone might react to that. Like someone coming right up to you and say, hey, I'm going to kick what you do and do it better, but it causes competition, and competition, at the end of the day, is good.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: It's good. It drives innovation 100%.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: I mean, of course, there's definitely some headache and heartache that comes with it at times. So his response, I would think, would be like any other red blooded male who created something.
Not the biggest fan of it, but at the same time. Okay, I hear you. I see you. So from there, it's caused a lot of good things. Again, we don't fundraise, so we do things a little bit different. We're also slow and steady.
We're not trying to just come out of the door with guns blazing, bells and whistles, but we got things brewing right now that are going to be pretty game changing for sure. But anyway, all that to say is. So there's definitely this sub community of WordPress that is Divi.
When I got there, I was like, what is this? I was like, I did not know there are people who are gung ho, like, mean. I would imagine some have Divi tattooed on their, like some have Wordpress tattooed on their body.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: I know a few actually shout out to Dre.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: That's exactly what I was thinking of.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: Dre.
[00:21:10] Speaker B: And I don't know if I answered the question fully.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Hugo Beta also has a Wordpress tattoo, and I'm sure there's more, probably Andrew Northrost as well.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: That's true. He gets tattoos like he gets coffee.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: Yes.
Love the guy. But yeah. So that is a huge community that's way larger than most people think. So I'm pretty much in the core of the Whippers community, right? So having, being one of the co founders of Work Netherlands work am Europe, quite active on the Dutch side of things in terms of translations early on and forum and everything like that. So you get to meet a lot of people, and for the vast majority, those people are mostly like minded. Right. That's kind of how it works. So there's a lot of plugin developers, there's a lot of agency owners and stuff like that. And in learning those people and the people they know, and then as the community sort of grows, it's very easy to forget there's other versions of the community as well. And I'm doing a long monologue here, but bear with me. So one of the things that I've learned over the last year, year and a half, as I was sort of for myself, just kind of figuring out what direction I wanted to go because the last 16 years are not going to be the same as the next 16 years, is kind of my thinking.
I discovered there's huge communities way outside of my purview, like you're mentioning Divi, I was aware of that, but I did not know how large that was. And you're even making it larger with what you just explained, you have the same thing happening with Elementor, obviously.
And what I also discovered is that on mediums where I'm not very active, that doesn't mean there's not a very huge, large, active WordPress related community. I think YouTube for me is one of the most eye opening things in terms of if you obviously, I knew there were WordPress tutorials on YouTube because I've watched them, I've used them, of course. But to know that there's folks that have close to 350,000 subscribes subscribers just because they're talking about DeFi Elementor, all these products that I don't personally use is mind blowing to really dive into and understand. So to wrap it up, one of those people is Ferdi Korperschuk, which is also a Dutch person.
He'll be speaking at Work Camp Netherlands and as I'm helping him because it'll be his first talk at a work camp, you get to know the person and you get to know the communities that they work with and how large and interactive that is. And I'm like, whoa.
It's fascinating to learn, which is why I'm very curious about your story. Right. You service those communities that most of us just don't see because you are in both. I would say you are quite known inside the core community for as much as that is a thing as well as those in the parameters around it. How is that for you?
[00:24:33] Speaker B: Well, I mean, it definitely makes your world bigger, makes your awareness of your space. And by you, I mean us individually, me, everyone smaller. So we think we're kind of a big deal in do. I do side work with Matt Madeiro and Love Dearly? Definitely an OG in WordPress.
And he really puts in good perspective of how big WordPress actually is. When you think about it, we're not that big compared to other communities or tech closed software and all that. And so it really kind of gives me more of a, you're in your village and you're a big deal, you've got the most cattle, and then all of a sudden you finish outside of your village and you're in this bigger, not so villagey, but maybe a little bit more advanced.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: Holy cow. This person has ten times more cows than I do.
Sorry, I had to throw in the holy cow there. Sorry.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it's been a lot of that, I would say. I mean, honestly, like I said earlier, when I got exposed to, I literally got hired with elegant things and then understood how big this community was, this subcommunity, how gung ho people were. And I was like, what? And there's definitely crossover. So I would say, like me, I'm a crossover. I'm in, there's, there's others I know of that are huge. Andrew Palmer, a lot of people.
Ai, he was one of the founding Divi, I called him, who was just a hardcore Divi user. And he still, when he uses state builders, he dabbles. But I know he still says Divi is his preferred. So I mean, there's some crossover, but yeah, you just basically get exposed to how little we actually are and how much bigger the space actually is, which actually is a kudos to WordPress and I still very much believe in the project, but that's what it causes. We have our community, our speak, our contribution to the project, but then there's these subcommunities that are coming out of it and that's really cool. And unknown somewhat.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: Yeah, it is.
Like I mentioned, I intentionally started looking at other locations where WordPress communities could be over the end of 2022. And as you do, you discover that there is way more than you were actually aware of and not a little bit, way more like hell of a way more like, whoa.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
YouTube in particular always kind of throws me off because there's people who are just like you said, huge. You have no idea who they are. And a lot of them aren't even involved with the WordPress community. The core community, correct.
And they're not even necessarily involved with their local because there's a lot of us who are not involved with the core. And by core I mean that more in a global know, but some of us are very involved with our mean. I could think of one woman here in Phoenix who I would consider like a mentor in my life. Her name is Carol Stamba. Amazing. This woman is ridiculous. She's amazing and she is not known in the global space as she should be. But it goes like that. You know what I mean? There's so many people who are doing amazing things and they're just not as known in the core space, but that doesn't make them not relevant. And yet we don't give them the time of day.
[00:28:00] Speaker A: I agree, but it's hard to get to know somebody that you're not aware of that they are existing or what they're doing unless you also happen to start using that product.
Is it a catch 22?
Is there a way around it?
[00:28:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess it's kind of both.
And even that I might see somebody on YouTube and think like, oh, that's awesome. They're not even around. I wish I knew them, but there's no way for me to get to know know unless they come around or I necessarily come around to their area. But again, if they're not coming out of their house, then we'll never, nobody ever will.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: Are you also connecting with them, those types of influencers and stuff? Is that also part of your job? Like the guy I just mentioned, Feddy coppershook, I know he's been using Divi a lot, or has been, at least I would think.
[00:28:54] Speaker B: The one I know of, I haven't been able to as much because pretty, pretty slammed with what I do. These are the things I want to do more of, actually. I want to do more of connecting with more of the influencers. We had all sorts of plan. I'm sure you know how it is.
There's only one me. I am the one and only community, period. Person at events, community. Anything regarding that, it is me. It is Raquel. And so there's only so much I can do.
Time is so. But that is very much on my docket. And actually, I'll be at Work at Netherlands.
[00:29:34] Speaker A: You will be nice. Well, you will meet him.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: My friend Remkis convinced me.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: Oh, he's a good convincer then.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:29:43] Speaker A: So if you look at the community that is under your wings, if I may call it that, would you say that?
Does that even split up into smaller subcommunities or is it everybody joins for the love of Divi and it's all one sort of community. I'm trying to figure out if there's even, does it even narrow down more into certain things? Are there plugin developers just doing Divi stuff?
I don't know. How does that.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: Yes, actually there's elegant Phoenix marketplace, which is actually, that's all it is, is Divi plugins that are meant to. Fascinating partnership with your Divi installation. Yeah. So, yeah, there's a lot there. That's all they do. And they're actually pretty, I would say, divi royalty when it comes to users. They know them and love them, and there's a little bit of, I would say just a DIY sort of little community, too, where they discover Divi in the same way someone might discover wix or squarespace. Sure. So they don't even actually know about WordPress, but they find out about Divi and they just do what they're supposed to be. They just do what they're told.
[00:31:07] Speaker A: Yeah. And they just happen to know that they need to do Divi inside of WordPress, but whatever.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: But they don't even actually know that it's inside of WordPress. In fact, the Divi Facebook group is like 75K people, and there's definitely so many, sometimes someone will come in there and the question is absolutely WordPress related and not Divi related. And then you're also like, I don't know if they know what WordPress is interesting, but yet they're here having a Divi site and trying to fix.
So there's a little bit of that, but otherwise I would say it's mostly just subcommunity of WordPress. Some people are in both and that if anything, the bigger community that is spun from it is definitely plugin Developers that make products just to enhance your Divi experience.
[00:31:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
I have this assumption that there's all walks of life in terms of WordPress development stuff like building sites. All walks of life are inside of your community. Meaning from somebody who can figure out how to set up a site in Divi. Like probably low level, kind of just figuring stuff out knows enough to be dangerous. Sort of level all the way up to agencies just ramming out dozens of sites per month. Is that the.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: Yes.
Yeah, no, very much. There are definitely freelancers and agencies who are just boom, boom, boom, churning out Divi site like crazy.
And there's like, now you know how page Builder World is. A lot of the layouts are what's super, super popular.
I don't even have the number on how many layouts we are. Design team. That's what they do now. There's so many different types. There's like a bushcraft layout.
Pretty esoteric.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: That has always been the strong suit of elegant themes. Right. The design.
Before they had diffie, they always had themes that had modern, very contemporary design.
You'd look at that and go like, oh, that looks good. I can see this person's site that I need to build. I can see it in having to have that design.
I'll be honest. I used to work with Genesis framework mostly, I won't say copy, but been heavily inspired by certain elegant theme designs over the years because I would build them from scratch anyway. But here's a nice looking one now. I was going to say, because obviously the design part is still very heavy inside of Divi.
Is there a lot happening outside of Divi, within elegant themes?
[00:34:08] Speaker B: No, it's just Divi now.
[00:34:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
[00:34:10] Speaker B: Yeah. In fact, we've been waiting. But see, before I even got on, their desire was to rebrand to Divi and drop elegant themes, but they couldn't get Divi.com. And we actually just got it. Divi.com.
[00:34:25] Speaker A: Do we have a scoop here?
[00:34:28] Speaker B: I don't know if the transition is going to happen. I just know that we actually got it. It was funny too, because what prompted it was, I know you have daughters and a wife, but I know you personally do not partake of makeup. At least last I checked. Correct. Like makeup stores. There's this new brand called Divi. It's D-I-V-I. It's called Divi. I literally was at Ulta. I don't know if you know what Ulta is. No, I just see this end cap display of this Divi product, it's for hair. It's like for hair regrowth and hair conditioning.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:35:01] Speaker B: And I was like, trademark.
Yeah. And I was like, guys, I was like, the beauty industry is trying to front.
[00:35:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:10] Speaker B: And actually Nick chimed in, he's like, that's actually what got us to fight for.
They saw that again. Pain is what usually makes us make decisions. Yeah, it will, but we'll see if we actually do rebrands. But that is what we do.
[00:35:28] Speaker A: It would be one of my long awaited rebrands I've long waited for. Why isn't elegant themes doing to something like Divi theme, whatever, I don't care. But just something more along the lines of Divi, just as I'm, and this is probably never going to happen, but I still hope that WordPress.com will rebrand as Jetpack blog because I think it makes more sense. But that may be me.
[00:36:00] Speaker B: That's too good.
[00:36:04] Speaker A: For anyone longer active in the WordPress community, especially on the inside where we know the difference between, and you know that that line is very ambiguous.
It's probably there for some reason not being very clear. So switching to Jetpack blog, that makes perfect sense in my head just to have a full separation on what is WordPress and what is Jetpack. But that's a sidetrack.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: It's funny.
[00:36:35] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe not to some of the listeners, but if you don't like it, please let me know. Please let me know.
[00:36:43] Speaker B: I mean, it's funny. Even if it shouldn't happen, it's still funny.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm going to check right now. Jetpack blog actually redirects to, this is me typing into my browser.
[00:36:56] Speaker B: That is so funny.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: Well, it doesn't seem to resolve.
The connection is not secure, so. No, probably not.
Oh, it does. But it goes to Jetpack Comb blog. So it goes to the blog of Jetpack. Okay, I can see this happening still.
[00:37:16] Speaker B: Your dream is still alive.
[00:37:18] Speaker A: My dream is still alive. So for a longtime work camp organizer, you've been also to many word camps.
One of the things I always find fascinating is the differences between a community in location X and community in location Y.
Obviously there's a difference. I mean, obviously from my perspective, I've been to work campus, I've been to work Camp Europe. There's a difference in that. But do you see a difference in how work camps in the US are versus the sort of interaction that you can gather?
Do you even see diffi crowds at work camps? Let me start with that one.
[00:38:02] Speaker B: Yes, so actually, my very first sort of experience with Divi users was at Word Camp, Orange County, 2017. It was literally the weekend before Word Camp Europe in Paris that year, I did like a back to back sandwich of work camps.
[00:38:18] Speaker A: You're brave.
[00:38:20] Speaker B: It was a lot of fun. I love that. But anyway, I'm there, and there is just this crowd of a bunch of people herding together in purple shirts, like the entire time. And I'm like, what is going on? Finally, I, like, asked my good friend Brandon Baba. I was like, people in the purple shirt? And he's like, oh, those are Divi. I was like, what? I didn't even know what it was.
Modifact. We were always Team Beaver Builder, which actually inside Scoop Beaver Builder and Divi, we're all really good friends. Like the CEO at all the sea levels and Robbie, Billy, Justin, like, really good friends.
In fact, when I got hired with all the Guinness, I immediately messaged them. I was like, guys, are we still good friends?
But anyway. But we were always Team Beaver builders, so I didn't even know what Divi was. But, yeah, so going to that work. So what would happen was Divi would choose a word camp throughout. They would choose a local and then us, and then have basically like a Divi meetup at the no. To answer the more broader question. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a difference, for sure. For instance, Wordcamp Phoenix Suite, our team just coincidentally has several people who know actually how to run a conference regardless of work camp. So our conferences have always been. And I'm going to brag, but I'm not one to brag unless it's true. If that makes.
[00:39:50] Speaker A: That's the way it should be.
[00:39:52] Speaker B: Yes. And we put on an amazing show. We just kill it. We just kill it.
Everything is thought out. Everything. I just love it. And partly because we have an amazing team, but then you go to some camps, like, for instance, we're Ken Burnch county, always one of my most favorite camps. It's not big. It's maybe 200, 250 people, but it's like so sweet and so just full of the field and friend and I love the way they run an efficient, simple camp. It's just amazing. And then you might go to another camp that you could tell they phoned it in.
Here we are handwritten. Fine.
It's not necessarily bad, but it's just different.
[00:40:40] Speaker A: More of a grassroots approach.
[00:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I definitely noticed, too.
Let's compare Wordcamp us to Wordcamp Europe. I think organizing, and I've been on the word campus organizing team for three years, and I have volunteered at Work camp Europe. I know you've been an organizer for years, and organizing wise, it's similar, I would say, but I don't know what it is. And maybe it's other people compared to Americans, but there is just this, like, shit of the attendees and the after party blows any other after party out of the water this past one, I know it was a little on the, like. Okay, we only get one option, but, like, of course that option is one that Raquel usually likes. But I do like to talk too, you know what I mean? I don't just only love dance on the table for everybody. That was a little incriminating right now that I just said that, but they both have their place for me, so a lot of camps are pretty different. And actually, Netherlands will be my first local Europe.
[00:41:55] Speaker A: Oh, interesting.
[00:41:56] Speaker B: It'll be my first one. I'm curious how it's going to be.
[00:42:00] Speaker A: Yeah. So Dutch people, what can I say?
[00:42:07] Speaker B: Okay, before you say, can I just say that maybe my thoughts are.
[00:42:11] Speaker A: Yeah, sure, yeah, please do.
[00:42:12] Speaker B: Half indigenous, half Latina American. Thinks of Dutch as pretty Cool, calm, collected, and, like, Joe and Jane Cool.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's pretty accurate.
In terms of vibe, I think it's very European, obviously, but I also think it's the European version of it's easy to connect, as it is easy to just do it on your own entirely. And both are fine.
I know there's also European countries where you are pulled in, and that's pretty much the only mode that's possible.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Really.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: Well, not as black and white, but in terms of Dutch, people can be reserved. Right? Can just kind of keep to themselves, and that's fine, and you'll see that, but you'll also see the very large groups of people interacting and then stuff like that. So I think it's more of a mix in that regard. And we sure do like our after parties. Yeah, I think we have an in between party this time.
[00:43:26] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:43:29] Speaker A: I'm aware there's differences. Right. So I've been to work camps in Helsinki, Oslo, Bucharesti, Sevilla, Germany. I've been all over the map, and there is always a difference between the various.
And I know the US is supposed to be one country, but obviously it's. Oh, my God, it's quite a different beast if we're really being, you know, my question was more like, is that noticeable from area to area, or is that.
I don't know. I would imagine something in the south would happen differently than in California. Versus New York.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, no, absolutely. So I've been to work camps all over the US for sure. So Seattle, Miami, Minneapolis, the Midwest, everything on the coast of.
Yeah. Southwest. Region of.
Absolutely. No, absolutely.
The Midwest is hilarious. Minneapolis, it's exactly what you would imagine if you know, the Midwest of the US. I've been think, yeah, I'm pretty sure I knew that. But a guy was there wearing, you know, the whole.
Yeah, like, that's like a whole thing. Keep Austin weird. So that some guy had a shirt that said keep, like, oh, my gosh, this is exactly like. And it's one of those where, like the after party, I don't even remember what exactly it was. I think we all were at a restaurant just hangiNg, and at that point it was like, okay, guys, what are we doing? Where are we going? We all show up for like a half hour and then we leave. And that's not to knock it. It's just, that's just the cultural difference.
[00:45:13] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So that's my curiosity, hence my question. I'm curious if you can identify different things as you're alluding to having seen different work camps all over the US as well as being at work Camp Europe in different countries, you, I would imagine, have a pretty good idea of what differences are. It's always fascinating to learn of these.
Would you say that the diffi community is a particular way or is it as whatever, where we are a particular way?
Well, for instance, there's a difference between workamp Europe and workamp Us.
That's a different vibe.
Does the diffie crowd have a particular vibe that you would identify no matter where you are? I'm just kind of curious how a community like that works and if at all you encounter such.
[00:46:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I will say, like, for instance, culturally, there's going to be differences no matter what. Right. Like, for WordPress users in general, who are in Asia, which Asia itself is super diverse, versus Africa versus Europe versus US, North America versus South America, they're all going to have their flair of their culture, but divi in particular, I will say there's something identifiable. Divi users are hardcore. They're like, what is hardcore?
Meaning the fact that they choose their product and they choose it with intention.
[00:46:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:46:51] Speaker B: At this point, elementor is the biggest because they've got the freemium, which makes sense. So because of that, anybody who is a divi user in any, especially not in America, but if you're in other parts of the world, if you're a divi user, you are hardcore. You're like, I'm a divi user. I would imagine like a football fan and I mean that in the not American football, okay.
[00:47:16] Speaker A: Proper football, not egghand.
[00:47:18] Speaker B: Yes. Proper football, yes. Egghand. Yes. I remember you always say that, but they're hardcore. They mean business.
TheY're the biggest fans. They are like, this is my team and I'm sticking with my team no matter what. And I would say that's identifiable of a divi user across the globe is because we are no longer number one, that we now have a chip on our shoulder most of the time. It's never bad. Divi users are not like arrogant, I would say, but they are very much like, this is my product, this is what I choose and I love it so that I think something identifiable.
[00:47:52] Speaker A: Isn't it fun how you can? Because the reason I'm asking is I'm trying to get a feel of it, right. I'm not in that community.
I'm trying to get a feel of what that is like. And as you described it, I'm like, this is fun. That to have these differences in a group is fascinating. Obviously it goes back to human nature. We're all different and we all have different roles and groups and all that. And it makes sense. But for the Weppers community to exist of so many different poles of community, I think that's fascinating. And I love seeing it, interacting with it when I can.
And it's just this thing that is. Yeah. The more you deep dive into it, the more fascinating it becomes in my mind.
[00:48:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. I feel honestly a little bit privileged. I never imagined I would be working for elegant scenes. They found me at work Camp Phoenix 2019 because I had led that iteration and 13 year anniversary and it was incredible. And they're like, you're what we're looking for. And I'm like, who are you?
[00:49:03] Speaker A: Please identify yourself.
[00:49:05] Speaker B: Yes. And then when I got in, honestly, I went in thinking like, what is this?
And once I was accepted and was introduced, I was like, what is going on? Again? It's like the whole we talked about, it's like seeing areas of Wordpress you didn't even existed and made Wordpress bigger and made you smaller.
But then you gain knowledge. And knowledge is not just power, but knowledge is empowering.
And if you have love, I'm going to say it, then it actually can be used in a really good way as opposed to you just want to conquer the world, then maybe that's not the best that you know everything.
[00:49:48] Speaker A: I agree.
There's this whole extra layer inside the community.
I forget who I was talking to this week, but somebody said something along the lines of, I didn't know how good a community could be until I stepped into the workers community. They came from Joomla.
And I go like, that's an interesting way to. Because Joomla is not a bad community. It's not. There's possibly just as great, but the experience of that person was I stepped into a community that was absolutely warm, welcoming me versus just existing in that community and having good interactions. That's a difference, right? To me, that's the Wordpress community as well.
I keep hearing stories like this. It keeps being fascinating, like how a particular piece of software and the people creating it, and I mean that in the broadest sense of the word, happen to vibrate in a similar mode for you to connect to, allowing you to have these. I feel warm and welcome.
That to me is the most fascinating thing. Every single time I'm deep diving with somebody into the world of WordPress.
[00:51:21] Speaker B: I have to agree. It's funny because it attracts that, right? Like, for instance, I've gone my whole life to Wordpress of feeling like I never was, just automatically accepted in the communities and the places I was a part of, that I had to earn it, that I had to act a certain way about popularity in high school, that you had to have that where Wordpress, the community, I felt like, gives voice to, to some degree, gives voice to the voiceless. Right? The ones who didn't have that.
[00:51:54] Speaker A: That to me is democratizing publishing as well.
[00:51:59] Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. But to that point too, there's been some who I think have been attracted to it in order to exploit it.
The community has been really strong for over a decade.
I would say that the 2000s, it was beginning stages, the grassroots, the founding, but then teens, really, especially the early teens, and if you were around in the early teens and you're here till today, you're like, oh, you're one of the ODS.
[00:52:29] Speaker A: Yeah, shout out. Shout out to the OGS.
[00:52:32] Speaker B: Totally. But because of that, it attracted people who maybe didn't have the best intentions.
And I would say they were still welcome, you know what I mean? Because you get it and you have the right heart.
I shouldn't feel bad for saying things like that, but sometimes.
[00:52:53] Speaker A: No, you shouldn't.
[00:52:53] Speaker B: I'm like, oh, gosh, I'm going to lose somebody. Somebody's going to be like, shut up. She's silly, she's so mushy anyway.
But it's true, because if you have the right mindset here, we go, there's a word everybody loves. If you have the right mindset, then those people are still welcome. They're probably not going to laugh because they're not going to get, I would agree, what they want if our community stays this way. And again, I still say people are welcome.
But if you're here and there's a reason why you're here, it's usually because we have that vibe, we have that vibration that we share, and if we keep doing that, then it's going to keep getting better. And then all those people are still woke up and maybe they'll get better. That's my hope, is that they'll be affected and maybe their intentions will change. Maybe they didn't even realize they had the intentions. Maybe their mind will be like, I came in for this, but actually this happened and I'm a changed person.
I don't know. That's my hope.
[00:53:44] Speaker A: That's a beautiful hope. I have on my WordPress profile page, I have one line that says, I came for the software. I ended up with a family.
And that's kind of what you're saying here.
[00:53:55] Speaker B: Yeah, totally.
[00:53:58] Speaker A: And I mean, a family of choosing, right, not of blood, which you bicker with and wrestle through youth to whatever, but the family of belonging.
I feel like I belong here. There's plenty of people that go to me and say, like, you know, I, I don't understand how you're.
So I started contributing back to WordPress early 2008, probably 2007, 2008. They go like, I don't understand how you're doing this for 15 years. What are you getting out of it? And they're asking that question specifically because they don't think I'm getting enough out of it. So what does it give back to me? And I usually explain something along the lines of, if I need to start explaining what I'm getting back from it, buckle up, have a seat, and we'll be here for a few hours. Because it's more than I get better software or I get to know people.
Yeah, those are some of the elements, but there's so much more.
[00:55:08] Speaker B: It is very multifaceted.
[00:55:10] Speaker A: It is.
And what I find fascinating about what you do is that you happen to be able to facilitate that for a very specific community, which I would imagine being a very gratifying role in so many ways.
[00:55:28] Speaker B: It very much is. I think for that kind of the eye opening moment was the end of 2020.
We knew when the pandemic first began. And I was crushed. I was crushed. I was going through an awful divorce at the beginning. So I'm, like, trapped in this house. Just somebody one could imagine filled the gap and then had several transitions, moving and having three teenagers to still guard their hearts through the transition. And my dream of creating this event for Divi was crushed and everything went virtual. And on top of that, if anyone knows me, I know you know me. Fuck virtual. Are we allowed to say that.
[00:56:15] Speaker A: I have a bleep here somewhere?
[00:56:18] Speaker B: Too late.
But again, as the main supplement. Yes. You and I, what we're doing right now. Love it, love it. But we went to 100% virtual world.
I was crushed. My psyche, everything inside of me was dying. Was dying. This is how to kill Raquel. You want to know how to kill Raquel? Go to an all virtual.
[00:56:39] Speaker A: Yeah, doesn't work for me either.
[00:56:42] Speaker B: Player one.
[00:56:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:45] Speaker B: Go ahead.
[00:56:46] Speaker A: No, please, please continue.
[00:56:48] Speaker B: I was just going to say to end. That was at the end of the year because I just knew I had to implement. I had to implement everything virtually. So I'm like. I'm teaching this entire. At the time, there was, like 70 groups of how to move everything online, how to have an online meetup, how to still engage, how to still all this. And then so many things happened that year that I didn't even realize the effect of my gifting until the end.
I'm sorry. I think this was. Yes, it was 2020. So at the end of the year, when I had my end of the year review, I was, like, crying because I could not believe. I feel like that was the moment I realized how perfect I am for this sort of role. And what I do for communities is because my manager was just blown away. I was blown away.
It's like all these things compounded, because any community, you know, when it's successful is when they start doing stuff.
You do what you do, and if the community lasts because of you, that's great, but you know what's only because of you? But then when they spin offs start happening and they're doing the things that you do and they're getting motivated, they're getting inspired and they're.
[00:58:03] Speaker A: That's the sign of you being successful.
[00:58:06] Speaker B: Yes. And that's what happened. And I was like, what? This is virtual.
I was mad. And then here that happened. And of course, I still don't prefer virtual, but as a supplement, totally fine. But that's what I knew. I was like, see, this is what you were born for. You're born to create connection amongst humans, because the humans that feel connected are going to go out and connect some more. Whether it's through their divi meetup or whether it's walking down the street or whether it's at a Wordpress word camp, they're going to keep doing it. I love it.
[00:58:39] Speaker A: It's a beautiful story.
I love it as well.
I get giddy.
[00:58:48] Speaker B: I get giddy.
[00:58:49] Speaker A: Yeah. But I love that about your story, about you. That's a perfect example of a part of the community that is probably not as visible unless you start looking at it.
You are the glue right between the software, the product and the community in various ways. And I love your explanation, and it's wonderful to actually see it radiate from you as you are explaining it. I think that's a great thing. So I'm very grateful for you appearing on the podcast and talking about this because I think it's a beautiful side of the whippers community that more people should be aware of. So I want to thank you for this conversation. AnD, yeah, I had a great time.
[00:59:44] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. Ramkas, you mentioned earlier about feeling like I came for the software, but I gained a family. Something like that. There's so much truth to that. What makes me relate to that is how much I feel like I have gained so many brothers in this community, and you are one of them.
[01:00:02] Speaker A: Thank you.
[01:00:03] Speaker B: There's definitely more men than women, but when I talk to people about Rimkins, I'm like, he's my Dutch brother.
Which is funny because Dutch Bros is a very popular coffee chain here in America. I'm not familiar with actual Dutch Bros. So next time you would not like it.
[01:00:19] Speaker A: Next time we're stateside, you're going to have to take me, even though I don't drink coffee, but need to. And I need to experience that.
[01:00:27] Speaker B: You do?
[01:00:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:29] Speaker B: You're my actual Detroit.
[01:00:30] Speaker A: Excellent. Thank you so much. Welcome.
